Episode #1039
A lot of guys think they can only grow by surrounding themselves with men on their same level or above them. The truth is real growth happens when you reach back and help another man who is a few steps behind.
In this episode, Doug and Coach Mike talk about what it really means to lead, why lifting other men up deepens your own mastery, and how staying humble keeps you moving forward. They share stories about fatherhood, coaching, and the lessons that come when you stop trying to prove yourself and start serving.
If you are waiting to feel ready before you step up for others, you are missing the point. The moment you help another man figure something out, the lesson sinks deeper for you too.
If your marriage feels stuck and you want a clear way forward, get the free training at https://fixmarriage.thepowerfulman.com/scales. It will give you the tools to start making changes today and your wife will feel the difference.
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Doug Holt 0:00
As soon as you feel like you can't learn something from somebody, you've lost.
Mike 0:04
But bringing people up to whatever their unique next level is, there's a reward and a value to that that is immeasurable.
Doug Holt 0:14
Reach your hand down and pull up the other men. If we all did that, Mike, the guys above us would be reaching down, pulling us up too. The world would be such a better place.
Mike 0:25
If you get what she's feeling, man, that goes a far, far, far way with her.
Doug Holt 0:33
Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of the TPM show. This is going to be a special episode because I am joined by Coach Mike Brown, and today we're going to talk about a topic that comes up a lot within the community, but a lot with men outside in the men's work movement and things that happen. Mike, thanks for being here, man.
Mike 1:01
Thanks for having me, bro.
Doug Holt 1:02
I'm excited. So for the guys that listened to the previous episodes, they might have an idea. We have a TAR happening. It's starting tonight. The men will arrive. We won't give away anything like that, but it's gonna be Coach Steve, yourself, myself, and obviously we have Eric. So nine guys coming, four of us ready for them. It's going to be epic.
Mike 1:22
I'm excited. I'm ready to go.
Doug Holt 1:25
I know you are. I know you are. You're getting ready all the time, though. So we were talking about this offline, or before we started hitting record. There's this kind of idea that a lot of guys have. It could be around relationships, it could be around any kind of development. To me it's, hey, I'm at a different level, right? So I'm at this level, and the guys behind me, they're not providing me any value, so I really want to be with the guys that are just above me. Do you experience that with a lot of the men?
Mike 1:56
Yeah, I do experience that from time to time. I wouldn't say a lot of them, but it happens for sure. I think one of the things that I try to do with the guys who are having that conversation is just have them see just to kind of go with them say, “Okay, you're there,” rather than arguing with them about it and saying, “No, you're not really there.” I just say, “Okay, you're there, and they're there, and that there's an opportunity for you to bring them up.” There's growth in that, and that's why I coach, right?
Because, you know, I guess I could say I'm on another level than everybody who comes in the group, but people are at different levels, right? But bringing people up to whatever their unique next level is, there's a reward and a value to that that is immeasurable. And I mean, you know, that's why we coach, man.
Doug Holt 2:52
100%. Well, so I have a similar conversation. I've had this conversation actually this week, or this past weekend anyway, and I was just telling the guys, like, look, a couple things there are people that are further behind you in your journey, and you get to uplift them. But that's where mastery comes from, right? It's in the teaching.
Like, if you think you know a subject, then try teaching it to a place where people can actually understand it, and that's how you know you've mastered it. And there's also an element, for me, Mike, of just staying in the conversation, whatever that conversation may be, and you have that development. Yes, surround yourself with people that are on the same level and maybe on the level ahead of you, but you need all three of those, in my experience, to really master a subject and really get good at it.
Mike 3:41
I agree with you. I mean, that's literally happening to me, like with you. Obviously, you've done a ton of these TARs, right? Yep. And I'm doing, like, my second one. And so I'm learning from you, like, I'm looking at you, and I'm figuring out how to do that, and you're lifting me up in that way. So I think there's no end to that.
As long as you're breathing or I should say for myself as long as I'm breathing and I'm alive, that's the game I'm playing. Like, what's the next level? What's the next? And to me, when I say level, because I really want to be really clear about this, because I think this is where people get caught up with this “level” thing they're like, “Oh, like, you're on a high level.” I think the levels really are just like freedom, power, and self-expression.
And just when I think I'm very powerful and I'm very free and I'm very expressed, and then I come like when I came and I did the TAR last time as a participant and I played that game. I said, “You know what? I'm here to go to the next level of freedom, power, and self-expression.” And I went to another level of that. But it doesn't mean, like, now I'm above everybody else. It was just another level of freedom, another level of power. And I think that, in my opinion, every human being has access to that or not. You don't have to do that. Not everybody plays that game. Not everybody wants to get to that. I think at their core, everybody does want that, but not everybody's gonna do what's required for that to occur.
Doug Holt 5:25
Oh, 100%. I think as soon as you feel like you can't learn something from somebody, you've lost, right? I go into every situation. You know, there are some areas of business that I feel I'm an expert in, yet I learn stuff from people that are way behind the road that I've been on because I've been doing it for so long. And I'm like, “Oh, crap, that's a good idea.” Or, “Oh, that reminds me of something else.” And you can gain something from anybody. We're just in here talking earlier off camera about business ideas, and I go, “You know what? I've gotten the best business ideas my entire life from other industries,” right?
So that cross-pollination and the same thing can be done with personal development. You know, if I go in and I'm leading this well, all three of us are leading this TAR coming up we'll be doing this The Alpha Reset with these men. There's not an The Alpha Reset where I don't learn something new, right? And as you said, I've done more than anybody, and still, at the same time, I'm always learning or remembering, like, “Oh crap, I'm still doing that thing,” or, “Oh geez.”
And all the coaches we have amazing coaches like yourself, as you know, from all over the world and every single one of us always talks. We kind of joke, like, as you're doing this, you're like, “Oh crap, you know what? I stopped doing that with my wife or my kids or for myself.” And you really keep growing. And if I were to come into this situation with a mind that I know everything, I'd miss that opportunity.
Mike 7:01
100%. And you know, I think what that takes right there and you definitely have this, like, this is a trait. I was telling you this the other day that I always look at leaders, right? People that are leading, and I mean, in a sense, we're all leading, right? But I'm always looking at leaders. And I even told this to you about yourself. I was like, I love the way Doug leads. I love the way you lead. And sometimes when I'm looking at that, I'm saying, what is it? Like, what is it?
And I think there's an element of it you just pointed out right there. And it's humility, man. Because if you can't look at people that you think you're ahead of I’ve even done that myself, like, “Oh, I'm ahead of you. There's no way you could show me anything.” But if I can't look at everybody and learn something from them, then I think that's a piece of growth that will stop right there. It just stops because, like, I'm here and you're there. So it's a block.
Doug Holt 8:03
Yeah, we all have that, right? I don't want to pretend like it never comes up for me, but then what comes up for me is like, oh, maybe my lesson here is humbleness, or, you know, getting over my own ego. Dude, I've had so many times it happens the most when I'm talking to people about marketing, right? I've just done marketing for so many companies. I used to have an agency way back in the day. I do, I run TPM’s marketing, as you know. And so I'll talk to somebody that just started out, and they'll start to tell me something about marketing. And in my head, I go, “I already know all this,” you know, because they're gonna tell me something basic.
And there have been times when I haven’t interrupted them; I’ve just sat back and listened honestly, waiting for it to be over when they take the conversation a different direction. I learn something new. Like, “Oh shoot, I didn’t know that.” What an ass, you know, that I had all these pre-judgments and other things that have come up. And here I am, I’ve just learned something new a new nugget. It’s a human condition, right? We're all human. We're all on this journey doing the best we can. I truly believe that. And so to the men that are ahead I heard this, this is a great thing I think it’s great. We switched over to the new TPM app, and some of the old guard, if you will, had some complaints. And a couple guys said publicly, “I'm hearing the same questions, and you know, I’m kind of above and beyond that.” And one of the guys stepped in and said, “What the heck? Somebody was there for me to help me out. It’s my duty to help the man, the brother behind me, and lift him up.” And that’s I looked at that guy and go, that guy’s a freaking lighthouse. Oh yeah. Like, he gets it.
Mike 9:55
Oh yeah. And I think, going back to what you were saying earlier too, it’s just it. Because some of this stuff I've done a million times, and when I get into that for myself, I think that thing that you said about the reminder like, sometimes it’s just a reminder. Even my own kids, right? My son or my daughter, they'll remind me of something, or they'll say something to me that it kind of brings me back down.
I don't know if I ever shared this. I do this thing with my kids, and part of this I learned from you, because I remember when I was watching one of your podcasts before, you said, you know, kids don't do what you say, they do what you do. Monkey see, monkey do, right? And so, like, it has me super mindful of everything with my son. My son is a mirror, man. So, like, whatever energetically I do with him, if I start raising my voice, he instantly, right in the moment, raises his. He’s screaming he’ll take it up. I’ll do it a little bit, and then he’s doing it, like, ten times higher. And then I’m like, “Okay, take a breath, slow down, and bring it back down.”
And then he'll just say to me because I have my kids call me out and they'll say, “Daddy, you're being mean to me.” And I say, “Okay, I'm being mean to you, so I'm gonna bring my tone back down. How’s this? Is this a little better?” So I let them adjust me. And that’s tough sometimes, Doug, to hear your nine-year-old son or your eleven-year-old daughter adjust you down. I take a breath, okay, I'm going to bring my energy down. I'm bringing it down here. And then they start doing that with me. Because and I learned part of that from you then they do that with me. And I say, “Hey, you know, you're being mean to me now. You're getting loud.” And he’ll say, “Oh, I'm sorry, Daddy. I'll bring my energy down.” And they're doing it because I did it, not because I told them to not do it, right?
Doug Holt 12:02
Yeah, you're teaching them how to self-regulate or down-regulate. What a life skill that’s going to be for them if that just becomes natural. And speak their truth, yes. Because, I mean, I think as men, we forget imagine a 20-foot-tall man yelling at you right now, right? I'd be scared, right? So our size differential to our children, that’s what it’s like for them. And so when we raise our voice and I do it too, right? I think we all do; I'm gonna guess that most of the guys listening to this do just imagine that. Once someone told me that, or I read it, I was like, holy crap, if there was a 20-foot dude here yelling at me, I'd be intimidated.
Mike 12:48
100%, dude. I want to share a story with you about that because I so actively teach them this. And one of my most important things for my kids to get is when I'm not around when I'm not here, because I can't always be there how are you going to deal with it? How are you going to handle it when these sorts of things happen? I had this experience. We went on a cruise, right? And we’re on one of these cruises, and my daughter wants to get ice cream. She's 11. We're sitting in the dining area; the ice cream’s around the corner. So she’s like, “Can I go get ice cream by myself?” I was like, “Okay, yep, but come right back.” You know?
So I let them have these little experiences where they can have a little independence. Go get the ice cream. She goes to get the ice cream. She comes back, and she's like, “Daddy, there's this man over there, and he you know, I was standing and waiting in line, he walked up to me, and he said, ‘Hey, you're blocking the way. You better get out of the way.’” And she said, “I turned around and I looked and said, ‘Hey, you can’t talk to me like that. Don’t speak to me that way.’” And when she told me this, I said wait, like, I started getting triggered, right? I said
Doug Holt 14:02
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Mike 14:54
Now wow, that's awesome that you did that, honey. That's great. Now, where's this guy? Right? So the guy is walking, and she points to him. This guy's huge, Doug. The guy was like six-five. He's probably, like, 240. And then I got even more angry because he was so big, and my daughter's like an 11-year-old.
And I said, “Him? That right there?” And she said, “Yeah, him.” I said, “You know what? I think I'm gonna go talk to him right now.” You know what she said to me? She said, “No, Daddy, I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think you should talk to him.” And I took a breath and I said, “You know what? I think maybe you're right. Maybe it's not a good idea to talk to him.”
Because I don't know how that because I was triggered. I wanted to go say, “Hey man, what were you doing?” But then I was able to kind of get off my own trigger and say, “You know what, honey? I'm so proud that you did that and that you stood up for yourself.” And I looped it back and said, “This is why I tell you I always want you to be able to speak for yourself. I always want you to be able to correct me. If you can correct me, if you can adjust me, you can adjust your grandma, your mom.”
And she said, “But they're not going to like that.” I said, “Doesn't matter whether they like it or not. It's you standing up and speaking for yourself.” Because I think so many things happen with kids because they’ve learned you know, back in our day, you just learned you never say anything back to an adult. This is how kids get abused, man. So that was like a huge win when that happened.
Doug Holt 16:35
Man, that all starts even bringing this back I love this story, by the way. I love that your daughter did that, and that's what I want from my daughter as well and my son. I think all of us guys, dads, want that totally. And then that starts again with if you would have taken this approach of you being too far ahead in the journey of your daughter not to teach her, right? And she comes back and teaches you again or helps you recall. A lot of times we just need more reps to learn deep lessons, right? We need to hear it many, many times.
In marketing, they'll say someone needs to hear something seven or ten times there are different numbers I've seen. But us as men, we're learning new skills in relationships and communication The Hidden Motives Technique. You know, when you first learn that, it's so funny to watch the guys when they first learn it. It's like they're like robots, you know? And that's okay totally. And you get to practice more and more. And this is another thing I'm thinking about, because I'm thinking about a guy that I was talking to this weekend about going back. I'm like, “Hey man, I want you to show up more in the general channel on the app.” You know, I remember this guy at one point telling me, “Dude, you do this so easily. For you, like, you just spit it off, right? A situation someone gives you a situation, like hidden motives you give an example, and you give, like, the best response.”
How do you think I did that? I did that by teaching this to guys like you over and over and over again reps. You can too, but you can’t do that if you’re not actually practicing. You know, I did Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu a little bit. It’s front of mind because I’m going to start taking my son. You don’t just go one time, learn a move, and then go, “Cool, got it, no problem.” No you get crushed in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I don’t know if you ever tried it, but, I mean, jeez, you try a move a hundred times, and you still I still get crushed.
And so we get to also, in martial arts, the black belts train with the white belts you know, at least in the places that I've trained and they keep doing that. Is it easy for them? It’s a lot easier for them, but they get something out of it. And me as the white belt in this analogy because I remember when I’ve trained with black belts I get a ton out of it. One is just to realize there are different levels to this game, right? And that’s inspiring to me totally. And they get something out of it too, which is, you know, for me, it’s just they’ve got a human body, they can just do whatever they want to.
And same thing for the men if you’re going through this. Guys who listen to this, they might be in The Activation Method right now, or they might be in another program with a different company it doesn’t matter, you know. Reach your hand down and pull up the other men. If we all did that, Mike, the guys above us would be reaching down, pulling us up too. The world would be such a better place.
Mike 19:28
Oh, totally, totally. And you know, I wanted to touch on something you were talking about with the reps. This is something I teach when I’m doing TAM. I use that rep analogy big time, especially with hidden motives. And so with guys I just had this in one of the groups I was talking to I said, “Hey, you know, I started doing that, and my wife's like, ‘What are you doing?’ Or, like, ‘You’re like a robot,’ and all this sort of stuff,” right?
And I told them, I went back to that analogy. I said, “Hey guys, did any of you play baseball, basketball, football?” Most guys have played some sport or I think I had a guy, he was a sales guy. “You’re a sales guy. So there was a time you did it the first time. There was a first time you threw a basketball. There was a first time you swung a bat. And I guarantee you, when you swung that bat, it was awkward. It didn’t feel natural. You were robotic. It probably looked terrible. You probably didn’t hit the ball until maybe the 50th swing. This happens.
“And so I want you to think of hidden motives like reps, yes.” And so I told them, I said, “This is going to happen. Now, what’s going to happen is your wife's going to come to you, and she’s going to say this this happens all the time she’s going to say, ‘What are you doing? Why are you doing that? That’s weird. That’s not you. You’re like a robot.’ And you can just tell her what it is.
“Say, ‘Hey, you know, I’m learning how to become a better listener. I’m learning this skill, and I’m practicing doing that with you, and I’m stumbling through it. I’m not perfect at it, but I’m going to get better at it because I’m committed to listening to you and becoming a better listener.’ “I can almost promise you that 99.9% now, there’s always that 1% but 99% of most women are not going to keep throwing darts at you after that. If you just say what you’re doing and keep doing it, they’ll have grace for you if they know where you’re going with that.”
Doug Holt 21:41
100%. I mean, basically you’re telling her, “Hey babe, I love you so much, I’m learning to speak and listen in a different way so we can have a better marriage and so we can both be happier and get along better.” What woman’s gonna say, “Nah, I don’t like that”? I mean, some probably, but again, that could be a safety test, right? You get to laugh at yourself and enjoy the ride.
And this is exactly I mean, I don’t know this for a fact but you see guys like Gary. I know you know who I’m talking about. He’s sat on this couch, the exact place you are, with his beautiful woman, Heather. You know, Gary is constantly in the app responding to guys. He’s been the brother’s brother. He’s won awards inside TPM given by the other men. And he still answers tons of questions. I can guarantee you although it might not be the reason Gary does it the more questions he answers, the better his relationship with Heather, his partner, becomes. Because it becomes more ingrained with him. He’s in the conversation.
It’s like Spanish, man. I took Spanish for five years. Do you think I can speak Spanish now because I haven’t practiced in twenty-some years? No, I lost it. But had I practiced Spanish every day or a couple of times a week, I’d be fluent. And if men are listening to this and they want to be fluent in the area of relationships, then be in the conversation of relationships. Be in the conversation talking to other men guys that are further down the path, like Coach Mike, or guys that are further behind, maybe just stumbling, you know, they’re barely saying “Hola,” you know. And just help them out a little bit, because it’ll help you with your pronunciation and your practice. And do it humbly, like you’re just chuckling a little bit. Because I think if you do it humbly and you laugh a little bit at yourself and the situation, it makes it easier.
Mike 23:31
Oh, totally. And you know, going back to the hidden motives thing and I feel like you said this one time on a podcast before but I’ve had this exact experience, because, like, I’m trained. And I tell the guys this when I’m in TAM with them. I’m trained to listen like, I’ve taken tons of stuff, and I’m a trained listener. My wife’s a coach, so she’s trained to listen. I mean, this is unique and you probably have this with your wife. And so my wife can say something, Doug, I could repeat it back almost verbatim. And I say, “Did I get that?” She’ll say, “Nope, you didn’t get it at all.”
Like, “Well, I just repeated exactly what you just said. How did I not get it?” “Because you’re not getting what I’m feeling.” I always share this in TAM because I want them to get it’s not just about being a parakeet repeating back what she’s saying. If you get what she’s feeling, man, that goes a far, far, far way with her. So I even have that experience sometimes where I know I’m listening to her, I know I’m right, I know I heard you because I can say everything that you said. And then you get to be right, but your wife’s over there not happy because you’re not really, really hearing her.
Doug Holt 24:45
Well, I didn’t get it, man, when I was going through my stuff. You know, I took classes on listening not the same ones you’ve taken, obviously, at that time and so I was like, “Okay, effective listening. You know, how to do it properly. Oh, cause what I’m hearing you say is…” then repeat after what they say. And my wife’s like, “No, no, that’s not it.” “Okay, I’ll do active listening now. Uh huh, uh huh. So what I’m hearing you say is…” repeat the words. “No.” Like, I just didn’t get it. And that’s when we you know, The Hidden Motives Technique was taken out of validation and a bunch of other methodologies put together. And now my wife’s like, “Yes, exactly.”
And you have to have some empathy, like, “What would it be like in that situation if I thought my husband didn’t care about the house and thought I was going to be basically his maid?” You know, I’d be pissed, man, if my wife tried to treat me like a maid. That’s not happening. I’m like, “Ooh, if she feels that, she’s pissed. Now I get why she’s mad.” Then I go, “You know, babe, I never want you to feel this way.” And all of a sudden, defense is down. She feels seen, heard, and then we can move to desired.
Mike 25:54
I use that one all the time. I learned that from you, but I use that one, especially when I'm in situations like that. She's gonna listen, and then you just start saying, “I can imagine you feel…” and then really get into imagining what she might be feeling, and then just say what that is. And that works really well. That's just one of those things to remember to use.
Doug Holt 26:21
I tell the guys to write it down. Write it down. Put it in your phone. Write it on a postcard. Pull it out of your pocket if you have to. Practice with everybody you work with until you get it down. Don't always use “I imagine.” That’s mine, right? We gotta mix it up, boys, because otherwise she's going to catch on really quickly. And then if she does I thought what you said earlier is brilliant just call it, admit it, like, “Hey, I'm learning a new skill to better our marriage, babe.” And you know, I can’t imagine she’s gonna have a problem with it.
Mike 26:50
Oh, I think she’ll be good.
Doug Holt 26:52
Well, brother, I really appreciate all that you bring to the table. Man, you have a wealth of knowledge and experience, and most important to me, just a gigantic heart that you bring to all the men. And I just can’t thank you enough for all you do for the movement.
Mike 27:06
You're welcome, man. Thank you for everything you do, brother. Thank you.
Doug Holt 27:09
I appreciate that. Well, we got nine great guys showing up here in a little bit, and we'll take them to the other side and get them through the Alpha Reset, and life will never be the same.
Mike 27:19
That's right. Let's do it. Let's do it.
Doug Holt 27:22
Gentlemen, listen to what Coach Mike had to say. I thought his delivery was absolutely phenomenal. If you guys are trying some of the new stuff whether you're in our programs or you're listening to the over 1,000 episodes we've done we don't gatekeep anything. It’s all here, right? We've given it all away for free. If you want to go back, listen to the 1,000 episodes you can, and please do. Or you can join The Activation Method, which is a program you can go through with a coach like Coach Mike or Coach Steve, who was here previously, and actually have a methodology to walk you through.
But what Coach Mike said is, if you're practicing and you're stumbling, just call it out. Your wife's not going to have a problem with it. She shouldn’t. And if she does, it’s just that she doesn’t feel safe enough to actually do it with you. And that’s a good sign for you now you know safety is your next step: providing emotional safety within the home. And look, I know, I’ve been where you are. I know you want your wife to feel safe. You just need the tools to learn how to do it. And by getting the tools, you also get to use them and practice them and wield them in a good way.
As I always say, in the moment of insight, take massive action. We'll see you next time on The Powerful Man Show.